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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 720

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for the 24th of july 2022

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lots of twos in there richard saunders

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coming to you from wet soggy soggy wet

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wet soggy and soggy

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sydney australia coming up on this

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week's show we're going to kick off with

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an interview i did a few days ago with

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melanie theresa king in massachusetts

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and she's a woman after my own heart

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because she's a science educator who

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uses

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interesting notions like cold reading

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and so forth to help educate her

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students about science she wrote an

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article for the australian skeptics

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magazine or published in the australian

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skeptics magazine about science and

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pseudoscience and science denialism we

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talk about that but really i was quite

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amazed how much we have in common

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when it comes to science education and

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science outreach i'm sure you'll enjoy

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this interview coming up at the top of

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the show following that it's the return

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of the book of tim with tim mendom and

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this week tim will start the first part

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of a two-part series about

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perpetual motion

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and it's called never-ending story

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written by dr anthony garrett but it is

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originally

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from the skeptic magazine

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volume seven number four way back in

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1987

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but needless to say when it comes to

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perpetual motion

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well

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not much has changed but one this week

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part two next week or the week after

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then to round off the show it's back to

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the trove archives

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and this week we're going to be looking

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into alien abductions

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included is a song yes there's a song

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about alien abductions i discovered

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thank you to those people have written

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to me expressing their sadness at the

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passing of our voiceover man jim

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wilshere just last week

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there's been a week for me of lots of

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memories going through the archives and

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finding lots of work jim and i did

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together a great loss here at the

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skeptic zone and of course as i said

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last week a great loss to his family

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goes without saying his friends and his

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many many fans in radio land over the

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decades

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next week i hope to bring you a a bit of

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a better a better tribute to jim

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including some of his skeptical poetry

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so no matter where you're listening to

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this even if you're busy are you very

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busy at the moment do you listen to

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podcasts when you're rushing around

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trying to do one thing after another

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after another maybe you're in the car

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driving somewhere

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busily being busy and

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sparing a bit of time to be entertained

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i hope i hope by the skeptic zone

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but no matter where you are i'm glad

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you are listening

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now it's time for me to run downstairs

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where are those cats

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i think they're downstairs by the heater

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i'm going to run downstairs

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and why don't i have a nice cheese

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toasty

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mmm

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with a little bit of horseradish oh boy

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while i do that i hope you enjoy the

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[Music]

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now folks right in front of me i've got

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a copy of the very latest skeptic

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magazine the journal from australian

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skeptics i recommend you subscribe and i

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was flipping through and on

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early on in

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on page 14 in fact there's a very

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fascinating

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report

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science and its pretenders and this is

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an article by melanie trisik king and

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joining me on the line from just outside

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of boston massachusetts is melanie hello

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hello

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lovely to see you thank you for having

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me on thank you

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not a problem yes of course it's the

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days of video conferencing and we can

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see each other as we're having a chat i

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found this item very interesting but

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before we get to the item it's about

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science and pseudoscience can you tell

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us a little bit about you yourself your

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background

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yeah so um i'm actually a plant

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ecologist by training um and

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uh teach at a community college

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in massachusetts and our community

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college system i don't know if you're

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familiar with but um they're two-year

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colleges and so we have a lot of

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students who get their

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their credits and then transfer on to a

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four-year

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and i have for a long time taught the

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general biology course that most people

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take when they need to get a degree and

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uh it's intro bio for non-majors and um

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i grew really tired of teaching that

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course because i kind of felt like i was

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just getting them to memorize a bunch of

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stuff and then they were gonna forget it

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after the exam and they were really

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gonna hate science even more than they

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started when they took the course uh so

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um i actually

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completely came the course and started

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all over again from scratch with my idea

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of what i thought people needed to know

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about how science worked for the rest of

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their life like if i have four months

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for the average person what would that

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look like

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and the article you have in front of you

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is is part of that i use pseudoscience

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and science denial in the class to teach

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what science looks like well this is

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very interesting and i read this article

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with great interest because

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it does cover a lot of issues that we

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face in skepticism that is a lot of

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people

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well to be blunt and for lack of a

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better word maybe are ignorant as to the

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method of science and what

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science means and how it works exactly

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there's a handy little chart

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actually i think it was on as i crash

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about here i think it was on page 15.

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yes there it is

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contrasting

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science follows the evidence for example

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the conclusion against pseudoscience and

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science denial now what

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what is the difference there what you

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know we've heard of people

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practicing pseudoscience like homeopathy

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and whatever and then there's science

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denial but there is a big crossover

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there isn't there yeah i mean this was

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sort of my attempt to simplify

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um what i viewed as the two different

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ways of viewing the things that aren't

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science and for me they really come down

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to so if science is a system of uh

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objectively gathering and evaluating

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evidence as a community to try to come

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to the best

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representation of what reality is

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science is pretenders the pseudo-science

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and science denial

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are the misuse of science because of

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different motivated reasoning either a

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wanting to believe something or not

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wanting to believe it so i mean nobody's

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anti-science until it conflicts with

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their beliefs right the the old saying

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goes so when something is um what we

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want to believe then our standard of

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evidence

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drops

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and when we don't want to believe

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because of vested interests or identity

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issues whatever it is our standard of

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evidence shoots the roof and it gets

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impossibly high

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but all of that stems from the same

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basic

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psychological underpinning which is

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the motivation to

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not want to accept science in some way

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that's very interesting now

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one of the points that i've marked here

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in my notes when reading your article

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and i find it a fascinating thing when

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it comes to science denialism is what

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you just sort of said then

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in possibly high standards

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people who demand of

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a skeptical approach

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things that we can't possibly meet you

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know their expectations i'm just trying

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to find a good example of impossibly

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high standards yeah i mean so these days

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i spend an awful lot of time on social

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media where i kind of get to view um

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people's representation how people want

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to have discussions about these concepts

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and you can see it in practice and when

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somebody doesn't want to believe

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something they'll say something like

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well science hasn't proven it to be true

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right

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it's not a fact when science has proven

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this i'll accept it right um see it a

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lot around things like climate change um

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evolution vaccines

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so for me this comes back to um this old

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way of how we teach science

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it

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drives me bonkers at this point whenever

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you see a science textbook you open it

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up and the very first chapter is the

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scientific method right and the

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scientific method is right make an

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observation and then you develop a

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hypothesis and then you design an

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experiment and then you know at the end

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of this linear process you did a science

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and then you have your answer and

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science does not work that way right and

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the worst is for most of these textbooks

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they never come back to what that

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process looks like in all of the facts

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that are presented in the textbook so

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it's my idea that what happens is

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people learn that science is these

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things that we know these facts that

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science has found out when they don't

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understand that scientific explanations

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are always tentative yeah we don't prove

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these things so when you start to talk

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about uncertainties

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which is how scientists talk the public

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hears especially if they don't want to

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accept it well they don't know

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right they don't know they're always

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changing their mind right when they

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figure it out then i'll believe them but

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until then it's just a theory but you're

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absolutely right that you're and this

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the

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topic that crossed my mind is homeopathy

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where i've heard people say to me

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well we know homeopathy works

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we don't know how it works but science

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has yet to catch up with us

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which i think is a fascinating point of

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view yeah

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yeah homeopathy is its own special can

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of worms

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and it certainly qualifies as the

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pseudoscience what i think is

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interesting um

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is that pseudoscience and science denial

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often dovetail so like um

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the example i give in the article is

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evolution just because it's so perfect

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um if you don't want to accept the

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science of evolution

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then you get this whole field of science

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denial and it looks like you know with

283
00:11:07,509 --> 00:11:05,360
the fake experts uh john cook's um

284
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:07,519
flicked taxonomy with uh mark hoofnickel

285
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:09,680
the flick so fake experts logical

286
00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:11,760
fallacies and possible expectations

287
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:13,760
cherry picking and uh conspiracy

288
00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:16,240
theories and you get all of that but you

289
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:17,839
have to have a belief to replace it the

290
00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:20,399
science is wrong about this so the

291
00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:22,720
pseudo science of creationism pops up

292
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:25,120
right and now instead of having possibly

293
00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:28,000
high expectat uh standards of evidence

294
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:30,720
any thing that we can find that fits

295
00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:32,399
with this of what we want to believe is

296
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:36,640
considered proof yes of creationism yes

297
00:11:40,389 --> 00:11:38,720
you're absolutely right i mean

298
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:40,399
what can we say we're all human we're

299
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:41,760
all going to look for the things that

300
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:43,680
confirm our point of view

301
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:45,440
to begin with and i guess when it comes

302
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,240
to

303
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:48,560
the points you make in your article

304
00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:49,600
it's it's

305
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:51,279
and i get back to my original point

306
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:52,720
there is a certain

307
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:54,399
especially in the general population and

308
00:11:58,389 --> 00:11:56,160
maybe understandably so a certain

309
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:58,399
ignorance about exactly what science is

310
00:12:01,350 --> 00:12:00,480
and how it works and again the point you

311
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:01,360
make

312
00:12:03,829 --> 00:12:02,880
when science

313
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:03,839
says

314
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:07,200
no we can't prove this to the nth degree

315
00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:10,000
or this is our tentative conclusion the

316
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,920
opponents of science

317
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:13,920
will look at that as as oh well you

318
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,120
don't know what you're talking about

319
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,120
science is wrong it's always changing

320
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:18,880
therefore

321
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:20,399
my point of view

322
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,480
is correct when we get back to

323
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:24,959
creationism or homeopathy again

324
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,560
yeah and homeopathy you said something

325
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:28,720
really interesting in there so

326
00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:30,480
with pseudosciences again the standard

327
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:33,680
of evidence is very low um and one of

328
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:36,240
the especially in alternative medicine

329
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:38,959
the anecdote or the personal experience

330
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:42,320
is considered just uh airtight evidence

331
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,120
so i tried it and it worked how do i

332
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:47,120
know homeopathy worked well it worked

333
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:48,160
for me

334
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:51,680
um yes and so this understanding the of

335
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:55,120
the limits of our perceptions to

336
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:57,040
accurately inform us like how biased we

337
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:00,480
are and then therefore why

338
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:02,800
um if we want to figure out if homo

339
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:06,480
homeopathy works well we have to not use

340
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:08,320
personal experiences we designed

341
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,160
randomized control trials with double

342
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:12,480
blinding to reduce all those biases they

343
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:14,079
can interfere

344
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:17,440
with our conclusions but um it's very

345
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:18,959
hard i've noticed to get people to

346
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:21,120
understand that their experiences aren't

347
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:23,920
necessarily airtight ways of knowing

348
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:27,120
um with my class like um i

349
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:28,720
i hope my students aren't listening but

350
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:31,839
um i on day one of my class i fooled my

351
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:34,560
students so are you familiar with the uh

352
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:37,600
bertrand four's experiment um so he's

353
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:39,920
the forward effect or the farmer

354
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:42,480
i'm very famous yeah so

355
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:44,320
he has this great experiment with the

356
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:46,399
psychology students he um gave them all

357
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:48,560
personality assessments and

358
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,600
um you know he asked them how accurate

359
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,040
they were you know on a scale of one to

360
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,680
five and most of them were about 4.3 to

361
00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:57,279
4.5 out of five

362
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,600
and they all got the same one yes so i

363
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:01,279
do that with my students i go through

364
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,360
this whole ruse of like i have this

365
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:05,360
friend who's an astrologer and she's

366
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:06,560
very famous i'm not going to tell you

367
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:08,160
who she is yet but she knows i'm

368
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:09,360
skeptical

369
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:11,199
like the whole thing it turns out i'm a

370
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:13,279
really good liar when i want to so i

371
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:15,120
then give my students this and then they

372
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,120
oh this is so accurate how did she know

373
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,880
me and then they realized they all got

374
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,199
the same one and my point is like i

375
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,440
could tell you i could fool you

376
00:14:27,189 --> 00:14:25,600
but you wouldn't necessarily believe me

377
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:27,199
you wouldn't take that lesson to heart

378
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:28,959
so i'm gonna fool you to show you that

379
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:30,800
you can be fooled

380
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,839
now

381
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,760
you can't necessarily trust yourself or

382
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:35,519
me apparently so

383
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:37,680
how can we find a better way i'm glad

384
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:40,800
you do that because just as a matter of

385
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:42,959
maybe coincidence or well hardly a

386
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:44,720
coincidence that i've been doing a

387
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:46,800
science show for um for school groups

388
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:49,199
now for or 16 years or something like

389
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:51,760
that and one of the

390
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:54,720
the items we do is the astrology test we

391
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:56,880
hand out their astrology it's all the

392
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:59,600
same and this was given to me by james

393
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:01,839
randy this test because he did it on a

394
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:04,000
tv show many many many years ago so i

395
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:05,440
know exactly what you mean and it's a

396
00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:06,800
great lesson

397
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:10,880
these sort of topics folks are covered

398
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,199
in the article i i sincerely suggest you

399
00:15:16,829 --> 00:15:14,800
subscribe to the skeptic magazine you

400
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:16,839
can read this article for yourself at

401
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,040
skeptics.com there's a handy table there

402
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,440
there's much more in it now melanie i i

403
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:23,519
know i i happen to know you know from

404
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:25,040
inside information that your great

405
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:26,639
passion is not only science

406
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:29,120
communication but education

407
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:30,560
now can you

408
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,199
flesh that out a bit more for me

409
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:35,920
yeah so um like i said earlier one of

410
00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:38,000
the big things that i think is effective

411
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:38,959
is

412
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,959
using pseudoscience and science denial

413
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:42,000
in class

414
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,480
so um carl sagan has this great quote

415
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,320
and i'm going to paraphrase but um if we

416
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:48,639
teach people only the findings of

417
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:52,720
science without the method of science

418
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:54,000
then how are they going to know the

419
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,360
difference between science and

420
00:15:57,509 --> 00:15:56,560
pseudoscience

421
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:57,519
and so

422
00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:00,399
i literally took him literally and

423
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:01,920
thought well what if i just use

424
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,440
pseudoscience so we cover homeopathy and

425
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:07,519
astrology and bigfoot and the loch ness

426
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:08,399
monster

427
00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:09,839
and

428
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:12,320
so many wonderful

429
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,920
different forms of pseudoscience and

430
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,440
science denial

431
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,440
i think too many students leave the

432
00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:19,680
science class again with this idea that

433
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,480
science is a bunch of facts but in the

434
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:24,800
real world you know there's so many

435
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,959
claims that they come face to face with

436
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,880
and what i'm trying to do is get them to

437
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:30,079
understand the world around them and the

438
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,279
kinds of things that they're going to

439
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:33,440
see and people believe in pseudoscience

440
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:34,560
right people

441
00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:36,399
don't trust science sometimes

442
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:38,959
and so i use that in class

443
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:41,199
um and i think it's very effective you

444
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:43,519
know what again this is quite remarkable

445
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:45,279
because this is exactly the philosophy

446
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,800
i've had with this show it's called it's

447
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:48,880
called the mystery investigators and we

448
00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:53,759
use these wonderfully interesting claims

449
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:55,839
for students we say here's the claim

450
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:57,440
this is what it looks like let's see if

451
00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:00,000
we can investigate it and the classic

452
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:01,440
experiment we've been doing for many

453
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:04,640
years is water divining or water dowsing

454
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,079
where we have a line of 10 tubs

455
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:10,400
upside down plastic tubs at the front of

456
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:12,400
the the lecture theatre or the classroom

457
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:14,400
and one tub will have a little bottle of

458
00:17:18,069 --> 00:17:16,240
water hidden underneath

459
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:18,079
and we give the students divining rods

460
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:19,520
and they all walk along and they see if

461
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:20,959
they can find the water then we talk

462
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:23,039
about double blind tests and statistics

463
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:24,000
and stuff

464
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:25,760
and i found that being

465
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:27,839
really effective because they're having

466
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:30,000
a lot of fun and they're doing something

467
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:33,280
really strange and at the same time

468
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:35,039
learning about the scientific method and

469
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:36,240
yes i use

470
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:37,600
one of the great

471
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:40,400
gifts of all is a ten-sided die for

472
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:44,240
randomization because the kids love it

473
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:47,600
of course they do so i see you and i

474
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,760
share quite a similar passion when it

475
00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:52,480
comes to uh science education oh gosh

476
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:54,160
yeah i think so i mean

477
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,440
i think about all the students i had

478
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,000
over the years um that i was teaching

479
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,480
the old way and i i honestly feel like i

480
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,240
failed him a little bit part of me feels

481
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:04,559
really bad um i'm

482
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:07,840
hoping that it led me to a better place

483
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:09,120
you know one of the other things that i

484
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,320
think is um really helpful uh is i use

485
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:14,960
um what's called inoculation theory

486
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:16,880
which is so it's the idea of like

487
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,039
vaccines but for the mind and

488
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,000
misinformation so if we expose people to

489
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,000
bits of misinformation in a controlled

490
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,240
environment then they learn to spot it

491
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,880
in the real world i teach my students

492
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:30,240
how to cold read

493
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:33,679
like a psychic wow right yes so that

494
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:36,080
when they see a psychic you know john

495
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,000
edward standing in front of an audience

496
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,200
going i'm getting a g girl father uncle

497
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:43,360
grandfather right they can see that

498
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:45,679
because i've taught them how to cold

499
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:47,679
read um i teach them how to make

500
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:50,320
conspiracy theories

501
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:51,039
i

502
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,640
teach them um

503
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:54,799
they make advertisements for health

504
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:57,360
pseudoscience products wow because once

505
00:19:01,990 --> 00:18:59,520
you make those and you see well it's all

506
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:02,000
natural ancient you know

507
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:04,000
um

508
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:04,960
healing

509
00:19:09,669 --> 00:19:07,600
from nature's wisdom

510
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,679
that i tried it and i liked it look at

511
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,520
this person in a lab coat and they say

512
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,120
it works you know i mean then you can

513
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:15,520
see it because they're all the same

514
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,039
i think you know what i think i'm gonna

515
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,960
have to make a special trip to visit one

516
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:20,720
of your classes because it's just

517
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:23,039
ringing so many bells with me but let me

518
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,799
let me just

519
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,880
reach over to my

520
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,559
bookcase here i don't know if you're

521
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,720
familiar with this book it's called the

522
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:33,039
full facts book of cold reading

523
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:36,320
okay and it's you quickly write it down

524
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:39,280
because it is the the reference for cold

525
00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:41,440
reading it's by a friend of mine called

526
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,760
ian roland it's been out for some years

527
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:45,919
but i learned so much from that you have

528
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:48,880
no idea it's a marvelous book

529
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:51,200
oh amazing i don't get that in depth

530
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:53,840
with it

531
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:55,280
but i'm definitely checking out that

532
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,160
book

533
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,919
and i'm in massachusetts you're welcome

534
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,320
to come by my classroom anytime

535
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:02,799
it's a long way to go but that's okay i

536
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,880
i would i would dearly love to see it

537
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:06,400
because it does sound like you and i

538
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:08,559
have been doing very similar things

539
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:10,720
very similar things and

540
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:12,960
while while you're there and i hope it's

541
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,120
still online you can see my water

542
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:17,600
divining test if you google my name plus

543
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,440
water divining it should come up i did a

544
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,440
demonstration of the amazing meeting in

545
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:23,679
las vegas many years ago which was

546
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:26,559
videoed and it's specifically made for

547
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:27,760
teachers

548
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:30,640
well melanie we we we'll have to catch

549
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,720
up one day in person we can swap notes

550
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:35,120
and have a lot of fun but it's been a

551
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:36,799
pleasure to talk with you

552
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:40,159
and again folks melanie's item is report

553
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:41,600
is in the latest issue of the skeptic

554
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:43,840
magazine from australian skeptics and

555
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:49,669
and do you have a website people can

556
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:51,039
visit

557
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:53,440
oh yes please uh the website is thinking

558
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,440
is power so

559
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:57,600
not necessarily just knowledge is power

560
00:21:02,789 --> 00:21:00,480
but thinking is power.com

561
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:02,799
i put a lot of curriculum ideas there

562
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,720
actually the um

563
00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:06,640
foundations of my course are on the

564
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:09,919
website um and i'm also on uh facebook

565
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:12,799
and twitter all right i think powers

566
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:15,520
folks i will link to that url in this

567
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,600
week's show notes but for now

568
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:19,360
melanie trisick king

569
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:23,910
thank you very much thank you very much

570
00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:36,320
[Music]

571
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,240
hey everyone this is brian dunning

572
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:41,039
executive producer of science friction

573
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:43,360
now on streaming services i wanted to

574
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,039
let you know about my next feature

575
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:47,840
documentary film it's called the ufo

576
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:50,960
movie they don't want you to see and

577
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,960
it's a science-based look at this whole

578
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:55,120
modern ufo phenomenon

579
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:58,000
what don't we know what do we know and

580
00:22:02,950 --> 00:22:00,000
how do we know it we're going to speak

581
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:02,960
with pilots physicists image analysts

582
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:05,520
and uniquely experts in optical

583
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,679
illusions and give the audience a good

584
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:09,760
understanding of what's actually in all

585
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,559
these ufo videos come and watch the

586
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,880
trailer and if you like help produce the

587
00:22:17,149 --> 00:22:15,760
film

588
00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:17,159
visit the

589
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,760
ufo.movie to see it that's the

590
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:22,480
ufo.movie

591
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:24,400
join me and let's make this film a real

592
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:26,480
resource that does the world some good

593
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:27,760
for a change

594
00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:30,320
the ufo.movie

595
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:38,830
[Music]

596
00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:41,280
you and now

597
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:43,460
a reading from the book of tim

598
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:46,159
[Music]

599
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:48,970
with tim menden

600
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:55,280
[Music]

601
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:57,520
hi my name is tim menden i'm executive

602
00:23:02,470 --> 00:22:59,520
officer of australian skeptics inc and

603
00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:02,480
editor of our magazine the skeptic

604
00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:04,720
and today's article comes from the

605
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:08,159
september 2016 issue of the magazine

606
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,240
which is volume 36

607
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:12,799
number three but more importantly it is

608
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:15,520
a reprint of one that goes back to the

609
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:18,000
dim dark distant age of the skeptic's

610
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:19,440
first decade

611
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:23,360
it was published in september 1987

612
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,520
volume 7 number four

613
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,520
this is an article called neverending

614
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:29,039
story

615
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,720
and it's written by anthony garrett who

616
00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:32,640
used to be a member of australian

617
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:34,880
skeptics committee in sydney and he was

618
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:36,320
a researcher

619
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:38,720
in physics at sydney university and it's

620
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:41,279
about perpetual mobility better known as

621
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:42,960
perpetual motion

622
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:44,960
and what i'm reading now is part one

623
00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:46,080
which will look at the nature of

624
00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:47,679
perpetual motion and what people claimed

625
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:49,279
it to be etc

626
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,200
and next week i'll be reading part two

627
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:52,640
which is the history

628
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:54,799
of perpetual motion

629
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:57,279
now let's look in part one

630
00:24:02,230 --> 00:23:59,440
there is a considerable gray area

631
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,240
between science and pseudoscience

632
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,480
skeptical organizations exist to combat

633
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:06,799
the latter and to encourage the critical

634
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:09,760
mode of thought employed by the former

635
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,440
often the distinction is clear-cut

636
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:13,440
astronomy is clearly a science for

637
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:15,279
example and astrology clearly a

638
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:16,799
pseudoscience

639
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,320
internal consistency is the most

640
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:20,559
valuable criterion for distinguishing

641
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:22,000
between the two

642
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,720
a new idea in astronomy if it conflicts

643
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:26,400
with the old ideas must either be

644
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:27,760
rejected or

645
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:29,840
less often must cause sufficient

646
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:32,559
revision to the old ideas to permit its

647
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,600
incorporation without contradiction

648
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,679
astrology by contrast is a mess of

649
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,000
ad-hoc ideas which are often in mutual

650
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:42,240
contradiction predictions of tropical

651
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:44,960
and sidereal astrology stand in open

652
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,120
conflict and one system cannot even

653
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:48,960
predict anything at all for those people

654
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:51,200
born north of the arctic circle

655
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:52,880
nobody thought to warn the eskimos of

656
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:55,440
this peril and no harm has befallen them

657
00:24:58,149 --> 00:24:56,799
as a result

658
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,159
astrology though was once in the

659
00:25:02,230 --> 00:25:00,320
mainstream of science even though

660
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,240
scientists today would not use that word

661
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:03,679
to describe the efforts of their

662
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:04,960
forebears

663
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:07,440
to paraphrase the poet william blake

664
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:09,440
knowledge itself will not be the same

665
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:11,600
when we know more

666
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:12,960
perhaps the birth of what we call the

667
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:15,279
scientific mode of thought was a one-off

668
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:17,200
revolution for all time

669
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:18,960
perhaps today's science will not merely

670
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:21,440
be outdated but transcended

671
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:23,360
there are no signs of this yet

672
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:26,480
new age ideals notwithstanding

673
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,440
in this article anthony shall examine

674
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,360
another endeavor which was once

675
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:32,960
mainstream science

676
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:35,279
and moreover science in today's sense of

677
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,480
the word

678
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,320
perpetual motion

679
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:40,080
the appeal is immediate to anyone who

680
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:42,559
has seen ash's marvelous visual pun

681
00:25:46,549 --> 00:25:44,320
arising from the projection of three

682
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:46,559
dimensions onto two in which water

683
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:48,960
cascades down over a water wheel and

684
00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:51,279
then returns by gravity to its starting

685
00:25:54,070 --> 00:25:52,240
point

686
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,080
perpetual motion was a hot topic in the

687
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:56,240
19th century both for theoretical

688
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,200
reasons

689
00:26:01,830 --> 00:25:59,760
could energy be created from nowhere and

690
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:01,840
for practical reasons because the age of

691
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:04,240
the engineer was at its height

692
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:06,799
since the idea is analyzable from the

693
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:09,200
standpoint of modern science it is in

694
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:10,799
this realm that the answers should be

695
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:11,840
sought

696
00:26:16,549 --> 00:26:14,799
the criterion of internal consistency

697
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:16,559
which serves as a weapon against more

698
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:18,640
complicated schools of thought external

699
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:21,360
to science is not needed

700
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:23,600
yet perpetual motion still stands as a

701
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,960
gray area

702
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:26,720
some of its proponents are clear-cut

703
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,919
cranks

704
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:29,840
some simply lacking in scientific

705
00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:31,360
education

706
00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:33,120
i have personally encountered both types

707
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:35,520
anthony says for the first type it is

708
00:26:39,909 --> 00:26:37,760
all a crazy hobby but for the second a

709
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,919
good deal of time money and even lives

710
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:42,000
are needlessly wasted

711
00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:43,919
let this serve as a warning

712
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:45,520
to those who doubt that scientific

713
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,400
literacy is the currency of our age

714
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:50,400
even a hundred years ago the u.s navy

715
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:52,480
came close to espousing the cause of one

716
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,559
particular machine

717
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:56,159
and the reason why perpetual motion

718
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:58,159
still remains popular over a century

719
00:27:01,269 --> 00:27:00,400
after the idea was definitively laid to

720
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:01,279
rest

721
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:03,039
is of course the dream of conjuring

722
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:05,760
energy out of nothing which is

723
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:08,799
just as pertinent if more so today than

724
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:12,400
it was in 1987.

725
00:27:16,149 --> 00:27:14,480
were this feasible all the coal-fired

726
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,159
power stations with their sulfurous

727
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:18,480
emissions could be closed

728
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:20,720
likewise nuclear efficient power plants

729
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:22,960
with their radioactive waste

730
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:25,200
natural power sources with a supposed

731
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,720
threat of covering the world's deserts

732
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,480
and mountains with solar cells and

733
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:30,720
windmills could be dropped the huge

734
00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:32,840
funds expended on energy research

735
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:35,840
redeployed and cheap energy made readily

736
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,159
available to developing countries not a

737
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:40,240
bad list of achievements for a humble

738
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,399
machine

739
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:44,000
now let's look at the types of perpetual

740
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:46,720
motion perpetual motion proposals are of

741
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:50,240
two types and the distinction is crucial

742
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:52,240
a perpetual motion machine of the first

743
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:54,960
kind actually creates energy

744
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,960
some of this is inevitably rendered

745
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:58,640
inaccessible through losses due to

746
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,200
friction in the bearings of the machine

747
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:03,200
or air drag against the moving parts or

748
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,399
whatever

749
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:06,240
the rest is available to the world as

750
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:07,919
free energy

751
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:09,760
a perpetual motion machine of the second

752
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,080
kind by contrast does not create or

753
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:14,960
destroy energy it runs forever by

754
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:16,960
completely eliminating friction in the

755
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:20,399
bearings air resistance and such however

756
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:22,799
any attempt to extract energy from it

757
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:25,520
causes it to slow down

758
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:27,360
these two types of machine run counter

759
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:28,640
to the first and second laws of

760
00:28:34,389 --> 00:28:31,600
thermodynamics respectively first law

761
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:34,399
energy is conserved second law entropy

762
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:36,159
increases

763
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:38,080
most perpetual motion machines proposed

764
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,520
nowadays are of the first glory kind

765
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:43,279
their proponents invariably agree with

766
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,200
scientists as to the laws of force and

767
00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:47,760
torque operating within their machines

768
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:49,520
these laws were first elucidated by

769
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:52,080
isaac newton three centuries ago

770
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:54,240
and state that force equals mass times

771
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:55,520
acceleration

772
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:58,240
torque equals moment of inertia times

773
00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:00,559
angular acceleration

774
00:29:04,149 --> 00:29:01,760
the reason for the law is already

775
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:04,159
acceptance is that one's intuition is

776
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:06,240
schooled in them once it is accepted

777
00:29:10,149 --> 00:29:08,559
that undisturbed motion is a body's

778
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,159
natural state

779
00:29:14,789 --> 00:29:12,480
that it alters its velocity only when a

780
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:14,799
force is acting upon it and that slowing

781
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:16,480
down is not the natural state but the

782
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:18,480
result of frictional forces

783
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:21,200
the path to newton's law is easy

784
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:22,720
it nevertheless took a genius of

785
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,960
newton's stature to comprehend this for

786
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:26,480
the first time

787
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:28,559
but crucially the same people do not

788
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:30,799
accept that the force laws also imply

789
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,200
conservation of energy this consequence

790
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:35,360
is a fact scientists call it a first

791
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:37,840
integral of newton's laws

792
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:39,679
but it is one step further removed from

793
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,840
the forces and talks which people can

794
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:42,720
feel

795
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:44,799
and so is often beyond untutored

796
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:46,000
intuition

797
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:48,559
i'm invariably told with a don't blind

798
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:51,279
me with science look that's as may be

799
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,480
but what is wrong with my machine as a

800
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:56,240
working scientist with a responsibility

801
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,799
to my employer i am placed in a quandary

802
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:00,559
when asked by a well-meaning perpetual

803
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:02,960
motion advocate to examine the design

804
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:05,200
for a particular machine

805
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,880
together with the inevitable discussion

806
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:08,480
it can take many hours

807
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:10,399
because it is an easy matter to produce

808
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:12,399
a machine with an obvious acceleration

809
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:14,480
mechanism but a subtle deceleration

810
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,840
process the permutations are endless

811
00:30:21,510 --> 00:30:19,600
even more subtle are those machines

812
00:30:24,149 --> 00:30:21,520
which interchange energy between its

813
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:24,159
various manifestations motion work

814
00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:26,559
against gravity hate latent energy of

815
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,960
evaporation the drinking bird

816
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:32,159
electromagnetism and so on

817
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:33,679
some of the subtleties are quite

818
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,799
ingenious

819
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,640
but if newton's laws are operating as

820
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:38,240
they have been understood for three

821
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:40,799
centuries the catch is inevitably there

822
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:42,320
somewhere

823
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:44,080
one particular catch occurs so

824
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:46,080
frequently that it is worth special

825
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,600
mention

826
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:49,440
perpetual motion machines in common with

827
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:53,360
many others are almost invariably cyclic

828
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:55,279
after sufficient operation referred to

829
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:57,679
as a cycle the machine has returned to

830
00:31:02,310 --> 00:30:59,760
its initial configuration

831
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:02,320
a wheel making one complete turn and an

832
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:04,880
internal combustion engine are examples

833
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:06,960
of cyclic machines

834
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:09,279
cyclicity is a matter of convenience

835
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,120
since a non-cyclic machine will be

836
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:13,279
difficult to exploit

837
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:15,760
often proposed perpetual motion machines

838
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:17,760
have an obvious acceleration mechanism

839
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:19,600
in one part of the cycle

840
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:21,440
while the deceleration occurs in a

841
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:22,720
separate part

842
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,200
it is essential to consider the energy

843
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:28,240
balance over a complete cycle

844
00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:29,919
perpetual motion machines are the second

845
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:31,919
kind though less commercially attractive

846
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:34,000
and no less interesting moreover they

847
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:35,120
exist

848
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,880
the circumstances for their observation

849
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:39,200
are very special however and cannot be

850
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:41,679
duplicated in the household as we shall

851
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,159
see unless one has a very exceptional

852
00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:46,960
fridge indeed it will not have escaped

853
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:49,519
the alert listeners notice that from

854
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:51,919
newton's laws an isolated body with no

855
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,240
forces or torque acting upon it exhibits

856
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:56,399
precisely perpetual motion of the second

857
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:58,960
type the problem is to reduce the force

858
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:00,799
and torque to zero

859
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:03,120
a top may spin for five minutes until

860
00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:06,240
friction at the point and air resistance

861
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,840
cause it to fail

862
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:09,840
place it in an evacuated container to

863
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:12,159
eliminate air resistance and it will run

864
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,360
for longer sharpen the point of contact

865
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:17,760
and it will run for longer still

866
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,559
but eventually it will still run down in

867
00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:22,720
the absence of any external energy

868
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,919
source

869
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,440
the starting energy has not been

870
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:27,760
destroyed for the system is isolated but

871
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:30,000
converted into heat in the surrounding

872
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:32,480
area and the point of contact

873
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:34,880
since heat is kinetic or motional energy

874
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:37,200
of the air molecules we could still see

875
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:39,039
motion if only our eyesight were good

876
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,080
enough

877
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,159
the motion is therefore perpetual

878
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:44,240
although in a microscopic rather than an

879
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:46,880
easily observable everyday macroscopic

880
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,919
scale

881
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:49,919
the energy of the top has been degraded

882
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:52,480
into heat this degradation process

883
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:54,640
translates into physics as the second

884
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:56,720
law of thermodynamics

885
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:59,039
it is a consequence of our inability to

886
00:33:02,710 --> 00:33:01,039
see on the atomic scale

887
00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:02,720
rather than a law relating to the

888
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:04,880
fundamental dynamics of the system and

889
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:06,799
is therefore a law of an altogether

890
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:09,039
different kind from the first

891
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,519
heat is inaccessible as an energy source

892
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:13,519
although energy can be extracted from

893
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:15,919
bodies of differing temperatures

894
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:17,679
since one would have to know the

895
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:19,919
differing directions of motion of all

896
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:22,880
those million million million molecules

897
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:25,120
in order to extract the energy

898
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:26,720
it's not surprising that there is an

899
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:29,039
intimate relation between information

900
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:31,600
and entropy the quantity relating to the

901
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:34,240
second law of thermodynamics

902
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,840
now other perpetual motion machines are

903
00:33:39,029 --> 00:33:37,679
the second kind are their explanation to

904
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:39,039
quantum theory

905
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:41,200
the revolutionary post-newtonian picture

906
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:44,240
of nature on the subatomic scale worked

907
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,840
out in the first three decades of the

908
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,519
20th century

909
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:49,679
one example is the humble electron

910
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:52,640
peacefully orbiting an atomic nucleus

911
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,799
obviously there's no air resistance air

912
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:56,640
itself consists of atoms and we are now

913
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,480
looking within the atom

914
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,399
because of the peculiarities of quantum

915
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:02,080
theory one can no longer view the

916
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:04,640
electron as a tiny cricket ball going

917
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,360
around a larger one but the criterion

918
00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:09,040
for a perpetual motion machine of the

919
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:11,280
second type is still satisfied

920
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:13,359
namely the description of the system

921
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,760
does not also with time unless it is

922
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:17,679
perturbed from the outside

923
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:20,720
the system does not run down

924
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,240
it might be argued that this is cheating

925
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,320
we can't see this electron and even if

926
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:26,879
we could the act of seeing it involving

927
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:28,800
bombarding it with photons would alter

928
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:29,839
its state

929
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,599
however we have now learned how to set

930
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:34,480
up an easily determined quantum state of

931
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:36,879
arbitrary extent

932
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:38,320
the secret is to cool the system

933
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,040
sufficiently close to absolute zero

934
00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:43,839
the phenomenon of superconductivity

935
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:45,679
in which an electric current circulates

936
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,879
in a chilled wire with zero resistance

937
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:50,560
not just a very small resistance but

938
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,440
truly zero is an example

939
00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:55,280
superconducting materials have been

940
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:57,440
found which lose all their electrical

941
00:35:01,589 --> 00:34:59,680
resistance at far higher temperatures

942
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:01,599
than any known before

943
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:03,440
though still colder than the coldest

944
00:35:06,069 --> 00:35:04,480
fridge

945
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:06,079
and indeed at higher temperatures than

946
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:08,079
was thought possible

947
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,680
admittedly you can't see an electric

948
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,440
current but its associated magnetic

949
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:13,599
field is directly observable

950
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,839
then there is superfluidity in which a

951
00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:17,680
super cool liquid will flow up the

952
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:20,000
inside of a tube immersed in it and back

953
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:22,720
down the outside indefinitely

954
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:24,800
these examples undeniably constitute

955
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:27,760
perpetual motion of the second kind

956
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:29,119
they violate the second law of

957
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:31,520
thermodynamics because ultimately that

958
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,400
is not a law at all but a heuristic

959
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:36,560
as was stated one needs to possess

960
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:38,320
complete information pertaining to a

961
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,720
system in order to extract all the

962
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,480
thermal energy

963
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:44,720
the second law merely states in effect

964
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,960
that it is impossible in practice to

965
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:49,119
obtain information on those millions of

966
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:50,960
millions of particles

967
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:52,960
it's not impossible in principle and if

968
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:55,520
the system consists of a single electron

969
00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:57,359
or a single superconducting quantum

970
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:00,400
state if it is an easy matter

971
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:02,480
and finally as far as the theory of

972
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:04,880
perpetual motion is concerned energy

973
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:07,119
conservation still holds in einstein's

974
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:10,400
relativity theory provided that mass m

975
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,119
is seen as a further form of energy e

976
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,359
related in theory by the famous equation

977
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:17,280
a equals m c squared

978
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:20,560
and in practice in nuclear reactors

979
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:22,560
that in spite of the statistical nature

980
00:36:27,109 --> 00:36:25,040
of quantum mechanics energy conservation

981
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:27,119
still holds exactly in the quantum

982
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,480
picture

983
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,480
and that's the end of part one of this

984
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:32,480
presentation and it's pretty heavy i

985
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:33,760
know there's a lot of physics involved

986
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:35,680
there but it's important background for

987
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,800
part two which we'll look at next week

988
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:40,640
in this article on perpetual emotion

989
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:42,480
appeared in the skeptic magazine

990
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:46,720
september 2016 which is volume 36

991
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,320
number three and as i said it's a

992
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:50,320
reprint of an article that originally

993
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:53,200
appeared in the 1980s

994
00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:54,880
and you can download it you can download

995
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:56,480
both versions if you like

996
00:37:02,230 --> 00:36:58,960
um and from for free from our website

997
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:03,750
and i look forward to talking to you and

998
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:06,250
continuing the story next week

999
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,990
so nice to be back at skeptics in the

1000
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:30,079
pub yes richard it's great that covert

1001
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,160
19 is a thing of the past and we can

1002
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:34,160
gather together and not wear masks

1003
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:35,599
although i will occasionally you know

1004
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:37,520
like you know in special situations you

1005
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,359
know what i mean

1006
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:41,359
this this beer tastes better than i

1007
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:42,400
remember

1008
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:43,520
and

1009
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,680
this beer glass is much bigger than i

1010
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:47,440
remember hmm

1011
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,119
oh thanks for this i'll get the next

1012
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:51,520
round ah no need all the beer is free

1013
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,760
tonight free

1014
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:55,520
wow did you hear that all the

1015
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,119
anti-vaxxers and flat earthers have

1016
00:38:01,990 --> 00:37:59,359
changed their minds what

1017
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:02,000
really yeah yeah yeah they're now busy

1018
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:03,599
writing apology letters to the whole

1019
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:05,359
world they're really busy they're gonna

1020
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:06,640
have to sharpen their pencil if you know

1021
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:09,839
what i mean ah look it's lara coming

1022
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:13,200
over here with a plate full of food hi

1023
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:15,280
youtube did you know that the food at

1024
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:17,680
the bar is free tonight anything you

1025
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:20,480
want really you have to try the lobster

1026
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:23,680
chips lobster and chips oh wow this is

1027
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,160
like a dream and this pub now has

1028
00:38:30,829 --> 00:38:28,320
recliner chairs a free foot massage for

1029
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,839
everyone and vouchers for uber rides

1030
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:32,800
home wow

1031
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:34,800
hang on this seems too good to be true

1032
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,160
who's the guest speaker it's not bloody

1033
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:39,200
brian dunning is it let me see

1034
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:40,240
uh

1035
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:43,200
this is odd it says here it's the

1036
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:45,920
skeptical fairy godmother angel from the

1037
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:49,760
internet the skeptical godmother fairy

1038
00:38:56,290 --> 00:38:50,480
in

1039
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:01,190
[Laughter]

1040
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:03,760
hello everyone who are you what you're

1041
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,160
only 10 centimetres tall that's about

1042
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,640
four inches for those of you using the

1043
00:39:13,910 --> 00:39:11,280
darth vader imperial system and floating

1044
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:13,920
in the air that can't be right as lara

1045
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:14,720
said

1046
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:18,079
i'm the skeptical fairy godmother angel

1047
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,200
from the internet ask a silly question

1048
00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:23,920
and you're tonight's guest speaker well

1049
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:25,440
not really

1050
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:28,400
i have come to tell you that yes

1051
00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:34,710
i thought this was too good to be true i

1052
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:37,599
know we can't meet in pubs at the moment

1053
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:39,440
but that shouldn't stop you from

1054
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:42,640
enjoying skeptical talks online

1055
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,680
the fixed skeptics have skeptics cafe

1056
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:47,119
each month

1057
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:49,920
sydney has skeptics in the park

1058
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:52,480
there are online events from the gold

1059
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:54,800
coast and yes yes

1060
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:58,160
this all sounds eerily familiar

1061
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:01,200
have we met before somewhere maybe we

1062
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:02,400
have

1063
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,440
maybe

1064
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:05,680
it was as we watched a live and

1065
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,160
interactive skeptical talk

1066
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:10,319
all you need do is search for them

1067
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,440
online

1068
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,680
no matter where you are in the world

1069
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:15,359
she's right i've been watching skeptical

1070
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:17,760
talks from the uk the us and even one

1071
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:19,599
from my own living room although that

1072
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:21,119
one wasn't very interesting i fell

1073
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:22,960
asleep and i was the speaker hang on

1074
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:25,599
hang on weren't you once

1075
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:28,400
the tooth fairy

1076
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:31,280
i'll never live that down

1077
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:34,640
one last question yes

1078
00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:49,589
she disappeared but um we're still here

1079
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,839
huh

1080
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:52,640
right so

1081
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:54,640
um

1082
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,720
lobster and chips anyone

1083
00:41:07,690 --> 00:40:58,640
all right now it's a dream you want to

1084
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:17,670
[Music]

1085
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:19,430
now it's time once again to dive back

1086
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,000
into those wonderful archives

1087
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:24,240
those digital archives from around the

1088
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:26,640
world in the segment we call

1089
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:28,160
trove

1090
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,319
digitized newspapers gazettes and so on

1091
00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:40,000
journals magazines from australian

1092
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,800
history but quite frequently we look

1093
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:44,800
further afield often to the united

1094
00:41:48,309 --> 00:41:46,880
states

1095
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,319
and this week we're going to look at a

1096
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:50,880
subject that i covered oh over a year

1097
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,240
ago now

1098
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:54,640
but it's certainly akin to ufos which i

1099
00:42:03,880 --> 00:41:57,920
cover frequently anyway this is

1100
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:05,589
[Music]

1101
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:08,000
have you ever been abducted by an alien

1102
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:09,200
have you

1103
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:12,880
abducted an alien i wonder

1104
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:15,040
we'll hear a couple of stories

1105
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:17,200
of people who claimed that they were

1106
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:18,640
indeed

1107
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,880
abducted by aliens and we're talking

1108
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:23,359
about the aliens in flying sources

1109
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:26,760
spaceships ufos

1110
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:29,040
[Music]

1111
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,720
and our first report comes from the

1112
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,119
nashua telegraph dated the

1113
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:34,880
18th of november

1114
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:40,710
so almost 30 years ago

1115
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,079
united

1116
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:44,480
by the unusual

1117
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:46,880
milford man leads network for people who

1118
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:49,440
say they have seen ufos

1119
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:52,960
or been abducted by aliens by paul

1120
00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:55,599
danuki telegraph staff to most

1121
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:57,680
middle-aged folks the people who seek

1122
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,400
out walter friesendorf's group might

1123
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,480
seem pretty odd

1124
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:04,720
like those who claim to have been

1125
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,000
abducted by aliens and subjected to

1126
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:10,560
strange experiments they turned to

1127
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:14,960
friesendorf because he is one of the few

1128
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:16,960
who will listen

1129
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:20,240
friesendorff a milford resident is the

1130
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,960
assistant state director of mutual ufo

1131
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:24,400
network inc

1132
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:26,160
a national group that investigates

1133
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:28,640
alleged sightings of unidentified flying

1134
00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:29,680
objects

1135
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:33,040
and purported cases of alien abductions

1136
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:36,560
friesendorf 50 says he has investigated

1137
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:38,640
about a dozen alleged abductions in the

1138
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:41,520
state including some in nashua

1139
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:43,520
londonderry and

1140
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:46,960
petersburg most of them friesendorf says

1141
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:48,240
are valid

1142
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:50,079
there are some people who will tell you

1143
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,240
about what happened to them and then

1144
00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:54,960
they don't want to talk to you anymore

1145
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:57,599
friesendorf recalls they just want to

1146
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:00,240
unburden themselves one nashua woman

1147
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:02,560
kept a diary of her alleged alien

1148
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:05,200
encounters friesendorf says she went

1149
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:07,359
through this for years

1150
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:10,240
even since he was a little girl he tries

1151
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:12,560
to get the people help including

1152
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:15,200
channeling them to support groups in

1153
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:17,680
which there are others who claim to have

1154
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,480
been

1155
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,880
abducted by aliens

1156
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,720
friesendorf acknowledges there are

1157
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:24,720
plenty of skeptics out there

1158
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:27,440
one such doubter is philip j class a

1159
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,520
contributing editor of aviation week

1160
00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:32,400
magazine who also publishes a newsletter

1161
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:35,680
discounting ufo phenomenon class goes

1162
00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:38,640
further than just debunking ufos saying

1163
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:41,119
that belief in alien abductions has

1164
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:42,400
become a

1165
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,720
dangerous cult and suggests that

1166
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:45,920
believers

1167
00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:49,280
seem to walk a line bordering on

1168
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:50,560
obsession

1169
00:44:56,069 --> 00:44:53,359
class said that they have developed

1170
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:56,079
their own dogma regarding abductions

1171
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:58,720
if you believe it they have chosen you

1172
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:01,520
for experiments and they will come back

1173
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,560
for you

1174
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:04,960
they will get you no matter where you

1175
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:05,920
are

1176
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:08,400
the dogma is that they have selected you

1177
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,839
for genetic experiments they will even

1178
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,680
abduct your children

1179
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:15,839
if you have a daughter they will

1180
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:19,119
impregnate her with alien sperm

1181
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:22,240
class says he knows of mufon and has

1182
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:25,040
attended its annual conferences people

1183
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:27,359
who are members of mufon

1184
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:29,920
are generally well intentioned they are

1185
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:33,520
sincere in their hearts but there are

1186
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:36,720
alien spacecraft out there class says

1187
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:40,800
i have spent 26 years investigating ufos

1188
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:43,760
and have yet to find one friesendorf

1189
00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:47,200
said he doesn't listen to the debunkers

1190
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:50,800
he's a debunker and that's his job it's

1191
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:54,079
not a cult and i don't understand how he

1192
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:57,280
says it is dangerous friesendorf says

1193
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:00,319
that class ought to talk to dr john mack

1194
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:02,960
a harvard university psychiatrist who

1195
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:05,200
has studied people who claim to have

1196
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:06,880
been abducted

1197
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:10,400
matt concluded that the abductees he

1198
00:46:14,069 --> 00:46:11,520
studied

1199
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,079
are not mentally ill we are not saying

1200
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:16,480
the experiments are real or not

1201
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:18,800
we're just saying these people are not

1202
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:21,280
crazy said pam casey a research

1203
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:23,839
assistant for dr mack we have been

1204
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,000
studying them for two and a half years

1205
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:28,800
friesendorf says mentally unstable

1206
00:46:34,430 --> 00:46:31,359
people have phoned him and claimed to

1207
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:34,440
have encountered ufos they are typically

1208
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:37,680
schizophrenics and are obsessed that

1209
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:40,560
they are being followed friesendorf says

1210
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:42,960
adding that they can easily be detected

1211
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:45,599
but those cases from mentally ill people

1212
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,359
are rare compared to the ones that

1213
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:49,920
appear legitimate he says

1214
00:46:55,750 --> 00:46:52,800
what particularly fascinates friesendorf

1215
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:55,760
is the consistency in their stories

1216
00:47:01,109 --> 00:46:58,560
alleged abductees describe encountering

1217
00:47:03,030 --> 00:47:01,119
similar little grey people and

1218
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:03,040
undergoing similar experiments that

1219
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:06,480
leave the same types of physical scars

1220
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,000
friesendorf says

1221
00:47:13,030 --> 00:47:10,800
friesendorf an unemployed photographer

1222
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:13,040
has held a fascination for the topic of

1223
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,520
ufos since he was a teenager he says he

1224
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,160
even has encountered a few unidentified

1225
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:22,400
flying objects himself one such

1226
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:25,200
encounter occurred in hollis along route

1227
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:29,200
122 in the early 1980s at the time

1228
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,280
friesendorf and a friend were in a car

1229
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:35,839
when they saw an object with strobe

1230
00:47:41,670 --> 00:47:39,200
lights floating noiselessly at treetop

1231
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:41,680
level friesendorf recounts

1232
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:44,000
they watched it for a brief time before

1233
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:45,359
it disappeared

1234
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:47,839
they never discovered the origin of the

1235
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:50,960
strange lights in 1982 soon after that

1236
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:53,359
sighting friezendorf attended a state

1237
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:55,839
conference of mufon inc

1238
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:58,000
and discovered there were others like

1239
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:00,559
him who had similar experiences the

1240
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:03,280
director offered him a position of

1241
00:48:08,069 --> 00:48:05,440
assistant director and friesendorf

1242
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:08,079
gladly accepted since then he has

1243
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:10,000
investigated countless cases of

1244
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:12,640
sightings and alleged abductions

1245
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:15,200
he is now investigating a wilton case

1246
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:18,160
that allegedly occurred in august two

1247
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:19,920
families claim that while in the

1248
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,200
backyard they saw strange lights and one

1249
00:48:28,549 --> 00:48:25,280
young boy in the family even claims to

1250
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,559
have seen an alien eyeing them

1251
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:30,480
from the bushes

1252
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:33,520
but even friesendorf says i have my

1253
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:36,160
suspicions about the boy's alleged

1254
00:48:39,589 --> 00:48:37,440
observation

1255
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:39,599
friesendorf declined to name the family

1256
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:40,960
because he says

1257
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,319
he wants to maintain confidentiality

1258
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:46,880
on december the 1st at milford's wetley

1259
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,280
library friesendorf plans to have a

1260
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:51,440
slide presentation about ufos and

1261
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:54,960
abductions from that he says he expects

1262
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:56,480
others will come forward with

1263
00:49:01,190 --> 00:48:59,599
information about ufo sightings and even

1264
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:01,200
abductions

1265
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:03,280
and the accompanying photograph is of

1266
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:05,440
walter friesendorf himself

1267
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,359
gazing towards the heavens

1268
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:09,440
and the caption reads walter friesendorf

1269
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:11,520
keeps an eye on the sky for reports of

1270
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:13,760
unidentified flying objects

1271
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:16,559
now again this story comes from 1992

1272
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:19,359
so walter fizendorf would be if he's

1273
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:21,040
still with us he'd be

1274
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:23,680
about 80 years old now

1275
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:25,760
and it's interesting the accounts

1276
00:49:28,549 --> 00:49:26,640
of

1277
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:28,559
people agreeing that they're little grey

1278
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:30,960
aliens and having similar experiences

1279
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,680
and of course we later found out

1280
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:35,839
that was largely due to them talking to

1281
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,960
each other and

1282
00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:39,119
feeding off each other's stories and

1283
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:41,119
embellishing each other

1284
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:43,599
and falling back on the stereotypical

1285
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,720
little

1286
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,880
green or gray alien with the large head

1287
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:48,640
and the big eyes from

1288
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:53,040
um fiction from movies and so on

1289
00:49:57,430 --> 00:49:54,400
and our next

1290
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,440
item comes from the chronicle telegram

1291
00:50:02,230 --> 00:49:59,839
and this seems to be from the great

1292
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:02,240
state of ohio

1293
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:06,400
from the 27th of june 2019 so not so

1294
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:07,680
long ago

1295
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:09,920
and this is a story by

1296
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:13,920
jillian brockwell the washington post so

1297
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:16,240
it's a syndicated piece

1298
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,839
and the headline is

1299
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:20,160
site of ufo abduction

1300
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:23,599
gets historical marker and the word

1301
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:27,599
abduction is in inverted commas

1302
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:29,440
what is certain about the night of

1303
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:32,880
october 11 1973 is this

1304
00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:35,440
when charles hickson and calvin parker

1305
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:37,680
jr arrived at the sheriff's department

1306
00:50:41,589 --> 00:50:40,559
in pascagoula mississippi they were

1307
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:41,599
frantic

1308
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:44,400
they told authorities they had just been

1309
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:46,400
abducted by aliens

1310
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:50,160
each and a puncture wound in one arm

1311
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:53,440
police tried to catch them in a lie but

1312
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:55,839
it didn't work both men later passed

1313
00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,270
well there you go

1314
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:03,839
on saturday the riverbank where the men

1315
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:06,800
said the close encounter happened

1316
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:07,599
got

1317
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:08,400
a

1318
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:43,839
in 1975

1319
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:47,680
when i heard a kind of zipping sound

1320
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:49,599
i looked up and saw a blue flashing

1321
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:50,480
light

1322
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:52,720
calvin turned around too

1323
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:56,319
we saw a 30 foot long object with a

1324
00:52:01,829 --> 00:51:59,440
little dome on top as it hovered just

1325
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:01,839
above the ground three small creatures

1326
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,440
emerged also hovering he said the men

1327
00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:07,440
were suddenly paralyzed

1328
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,160
the creatures grabbed them with pincer

1329
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:12,720
type claws and pulled them towards the

1330
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:14,319
object he says

1331
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:17,359
i floated inside parker told the bloxy

1332
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:19,599
sun herald in 2018

1333
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:22,000
hickson said they were subjected to a

1334
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:24,079
physical examination by something that

1335
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:26,480
looked like a quote

1336
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:27,760
big eye

1337
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:30,240
in quote a constant mechanical sound

1338
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:33,040
buzzing the whole time and then they

1339
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:35,920
were dropped off right back in the dark

1340
00:52:41,109 --> 00:52:38,559
delta where they started hixson found

1341
00:52:42,069 --> 00:52:41,119
parker standing up arms raised to the

1342
00:52:44,870 --> 00:52:42,079
sky

1343
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:44,880
and screaming he told the post they ran

1344
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:47,119
for help at first sheriff's

1345
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:50,480
investigators thought the men had just

1346
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,839
been drunk

1347
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:53,119
more lying

1348
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:55,440
after interviewing the men they left a

1349
00:52:59,750 --> 00:52:57,520
room with a recorder secretly taping

1350
00:53:02,230 --> 00:52:59,760
hoping to catch the pair

1351
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,240
dropping the act once they left

1352
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:04,319
but they didn't they kept on talking

1353
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:06,640
about what they had seen

1354
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:08,880
and how scared they were

1355
00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:10,880
we did everything we knew to try and

1356
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:13,599
break their stories jackson county

1357
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:15,280
sheriff's captain

1358
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,240
glenn wright told the post in 1975 if

1359
00:53:22,630 --> 00:53:20,240
they were lying to me

1360
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:22,640
they should be in hollywood overnight it

1361
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,319
was national news

1362
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:26,319
there were news conferences and cameras

1363
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:30,000
thrust in their still stunned faces

1364
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:31,040
a

1365
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:55,040
quote highly suggestible then quote

1366
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:56,800
now i'll stop here quickly to say some

1367
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,960
of that makes sense

1368
00:54:02,870 --> 00:54:00,880
now the line here that says skeptics

1369
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:02,880
called them liars will who who which

1370
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:05,760
skeptics we'd like to know exactly who

1371
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:07,200
just people in the street who didn't

1372
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,640
think their story checked out or

1373
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:11,280
official skeptics or

1374
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:12,400
someone like

1375
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:13,599
joe nickel

1376
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:15,520
it's very easy to just say skeptics say

1377
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,680
this or skeptics say that

1378
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:19,520
we read on

1379
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:22,839
believers flooded into pascagoula by the

1380
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:26,079
thousands wrapped in aluminium foil and

1381
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:28,160
sitting all night on the hoods of their

1382
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:29,280
cars

1383
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:31,760
waiting for visitors from

1384
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:33,599
another world

1385
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,319
hixon was 42 at the time and was well

1386
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:38,720
known in the community so perhaps he

1387
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:42,240
felt more able to handle the media crush

1388
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:44,559
he recounted the experience to anyone

1389
00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:45,760
who would listen

1390
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:48,640
he went on johnny carson and dick cavett

1391
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:51,280
he published a book in 1983.

1392
00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:54,000
parker on the other hand was 18 or 19

1393
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:56,640
when it happened he had just arrived in

1394
00:55:01,829 --> 00:55:00,079
pascagoula from an even smaller town and

1395
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:01,839
had planned to earn some extra money

1396
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:04,960
before returning home to get married

1397
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,200
he told the media he had passed out at

1398
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:10,079
the beginning of the whole affair and

1399
00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:12,400
couldn't remember what happened

1400
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:14,880
that was the only lie he told he said to

1401
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:18,319
the son herald in 2018 in fact he did

1402
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,799
remember what happened and was so afraid

1403
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:22,480
that aliens had infected him with

1404
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:25,280
something that when he got home from the

1405
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:27,760
sheriff's department he took a bath in

1406
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:29,040
bleach

1407
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:31,520
within a few weeks he skipped town he

1408
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:34,000
got married and picked up some work in

1409
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:35,440
oil fields

1410
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:38,240
if someone at a job recognized him he

1411
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:40,640
would quit if hixon was trying to get

1412
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:44,160
rich from the story it didn't work

1413
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:46,000
parker told the sun herald that before

1414
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:48,720
hixon's death in 2011 he occasionally

1415
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:50,720
paid the older man's electric bill

1416
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,040
parker now in his 60s slowly came out of

1417
00:55:58,630 --> 00:55:55,839
hiding in recent years and in 2018

1418
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:58,640
published a book of his own in march as

1419
00:56:01,349 --> 00:56:00,319
the city was discussing plans for the

1420
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:01,359
marker

1421
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:03,599
new witnesses emerged telling the

1422
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:06,720
mississippi clarion ledger that on the

1423
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,720
night in question they saw an

1424
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,040
unidentified flying object with flashing

1425
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:13,200
blue lights going up and down the

1426
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:15,520
pascagoula river

1427
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:17,760
they said they kept it a secret all

1428
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:19,520
these years because they were afraid of

1429
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:21,200
people's reactions

1430
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:24,079
one of them maria blair told the clarion

1431
00:56:30,470 --> 00:56:27,520
ledger the story is very true that's

1432
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:30,480
what has bothered me for 45 years

1433
00:56:36,309 --> 00:56:34,400
it's been on my mind for 45 years

1434
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:36,319
and believe it or not a quick search

1435
00:56:40,309 --> 00:56:38,640
around the internet and i found quite a

1436
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:40,319
lot to do with calvin parker and the

1437
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:41,520
ufos

1438
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:43,680
and mr hixson

1439
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:46,880
and so we have a part of a news report

1440
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:55,190
something happened october of 73 that

1441
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:02,789
the spaceship came with many blue lights

1442
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:09,589
three little men came out and took him

1443
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:21,430
[Music]

1444
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:23,270
last october in the quiet mississippi

1445
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:25,760
town of pascagoula two local men

1446
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:27,359
confronted authorities with a rather

1447
00:57:32,309 --> 00:57:30,079
bizarre story charles hickson and calvin

1448
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:32,319
parker told of a strange craft landing

1449
00:57:36,549 --> 00:57:34,480
near their fishing site and of being

1450
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,559
taken aboard by three unearthly

1451
00:57:40,789 --> 00:57:38,880
creatures the two men were questioned

1452
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:40,799
under hypnosis and lie detectors but

1453
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:43,440
their story remained intact one of the

1454
00:57:46,570 --> 00:57:45,280
men suffered a nervous breakdown and is

1455
00:57:48,069 --> 00:57:46,580
still under treatment

1456
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:48,079
[Music]

1457
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:50,000
i guess that's when i heard it was some

1458
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:51,760
kind of zipping sound

1459
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:54,559
and when i turned around in this area

1460
00:57:58,150 --> 00:57:55,839
out here about

1461
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:58,160
40 or 50 feet out there

1462
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,599
uh

1463
00:58:03,109 --> 00:58:01,440
there was some some kind of crap you

1464
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:03,119
know it was looked like it's gonna come

1465
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:04,960
out onto the ground

1466
00:58:09,510 --> 00:58:07,359
but it came on down and hovered about

1467
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:09,520
about a foot and a half or two feet off

1468
00:58:13,109 --> 00:58:10,880
of the ground

1469
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:13,119
we didn't know what to do you know

1470
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:15,920
the river behind us and and uh that out

1471
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:18,240
there not knowing what it was

1472
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,960
so

1473
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:21,119
and then before we had time to really do

1474
00:58:24,549 --> 00:58:22,880
anything and it seemed like an open

1475
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:24,559
appearance and

1476
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:26,640
toward the end it was you know

1477
00:58:30,549 --> 00:58:28,480
us

1478
00:58:32,390 --> 00:58:30,559
and

1479
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:32,400
the blue light it had blue flashing

1480
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:34,000
lights as it was you know approaching

1481
00:58:37,829 --> 00:58:35,920
the ground but then they went out and

1482
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:37,839
when the opening appeared some source of

1483
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:40,240
light came from the inside it was just

1484
00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:41,760
almost blinding

1485
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:43,440
sheriff diamond can you tell me just

1486
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:46,480
what happened that night no sir i came

1487
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:48,000
all i can tell you there was two men

1488
00:58:51,430 --> 00:58:49,200
came in the sheriff's department

1489
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:51,440
approximately 8 30 at nine o'clock

1490
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,240
they were all excited and upset

1491
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:56,160
i want to climb the walls

1492
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:59,040
hysterical crying

1493
00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:00,559
that's actually all i know is what

1494
00:59:08,610 --> 00:59:02,400
happened as far as me seeing what

1495
00:59:08,620 --> 00:59:14,789
[Music]

1496
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:16,870
well there you are stories from the past

1497
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:20,240
about alien abductions you don't hear

1498
00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,240
about it much anymore i must say i think

1499
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,400
the fat has come and gone

1500
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:26,160
well maybe i don't move in the right

1501
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:27,920
circles maybe there are still people who

1502
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:30,720
meet regularly and discuss their um

1503
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:33,200
experiences flying around in ufos or

1504
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,119
being experimented upon or something

1505
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,440
like that but it does seem to me

1506
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:40,960
that it is a bit of a um artifact from

1507
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:48,710
whatever the case it does make for

1508
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:51,920
interesting reading and research

1509
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,160
and you too can find lots of interesting

1510
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:56,079
reading and research to your heart's

1511
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,079
content by visiting trove trove.nla.gov

1512
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:02,880
you or your local online resource for

1513
01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:04,480
newspapers in your part of the world

1514
01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:05,680
because

1515
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:10,240
you never know

1516
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,069
the find

1517
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:18,150
three little men came out and took them

1518
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:21,119
inside they locked him over with one big

1519
01:00:35,990 --> 01:00:33,750
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1520
01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:36,000
zone podcast and thank you as ever to

1521
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:37,760
those wonderful people who contribute to

1522
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,480
the skeptic zone via paypal or patreon

1523
01:00:44,870 --> 01:00:42,400
at skepticzone.tv

1524
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:44,880
your contributions mean the show keeps

1525
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:45,839
going

1526
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:48,640
and as i think i mentioned last week or

1527
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:50,400
the week before i'm using a new bit of

1528
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:52,799
gear a new bit of kit which was

1529
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:55,520
generously donated by one of my

1530
01:01:00,390 --> 01:00:57,520
listeners thank you very much

1531
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:00,400
coming up on next week's show apart from

1532
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:02,559
i think a tribute to my friend jim with

1533
01:01:06,470 --> 01:01:04,559
some skeptical poetry

1534
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:06,480
the trove segment is going to be looking

1535
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:08,720
at pyramid power

1536
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:11,520
so if you have any uh dull razor blades

1537
01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:14,160
or you want your food dehydrated

1538
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:15,200
tune in

1539
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:18,000
to the show next week

1540
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:20,079
also coming up on next week's episode we

1541
01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:22,079
have an interview with my old mate ben

1542
01:01:25,349 --> 01:01:24,160
radford he's going to be talking about

1543
01:01:27,260 --> 01:01:25,359
his new book

1544
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:27,270
america the fearful

1545
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:28,400
[Music]

1546
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,240
and part two i think part two of the

1547
01:01:37,349 --> 01:01:34,240
book of tim segment about perpetual

1548
01:01:39,670 --> 01:01:37,359
motion but for this week this is richard

1549
01:01:44,870 --> 01:01:39,680
saunders signing off from sydney

1550
01:01:48,069 --> 01:01:46,630
you've been listening to the skeptic

1551
01:01:49,510 --> 01:01:48,079
zone podcast

1552
01:01:52,710 --> 01:01:49,520
please visit our website at

1553
01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:55,750
for show notes contacts and to access

1554
01:02:00,470 --> 01:01:58,319
the back catalog of episodes going back

1555
01:02:02,470 --> 01:02:00,480
to 2008.

1556
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:02,480
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

1557
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:05,200
on twitter at skepticzone

1558
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:07,359
visit our facebook page or leave a

1559
01:02:11,750 --> 01:02:09,680
review on itunes

1560
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:11,760
you can also support the skeptic zone

1561
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:14,960
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1562
01:02:19,910 --> 01:02:18,079
podcast is an independent production

1563
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:19,920
the views and opinions expressed on the

1564
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:22,240
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1565
01:02:26,350 --> 01:02:24,720
of australian skeptics or any other

1566
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:26,360
skeptical organization

1567
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:40,950
hi my name used to be team menden what

1568
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:42,000
is it now

1569
01:02:49,670 --> 01:02:47,270
hi my name is tim menden

1570
01:02:51,820 --> 01:02:49,680
i'm william